the first way too witty caption contest. phenomenal response. john tower has our top three. >> we have some great ones. free bird, no. don't know that one. >> good one. >> in and in the winner, ultimate air guitar. >> that's a good one. now, by the way, producer eric schultz who says the only one who thinks he's funny is his wife actually had a good one. another reason astronauts get all the chicks. although, you know, that was good for you i thought. >> for me. >> it's time for "morning joe." ♪ this seems like a genuine scandal. so explanation, please, let's say from the individual who oversees tax exempt organizations for the irs. >> they used names like tea party or patriots and selected

cases simply because the application had those names in the title. that was wrong, the irs would like to apologize for that. >> oh, okay, thank you. i appreciate -- wait a minute. i didn't realize apologies were sufficient in irs related issues. but don't worry, it gets funnier. >> i said that about a quarter of the cases that were selected for full developments had either tea party or patriot in their name. >> okay. sorry. thank you for the clarification, but that would be a quarter of the 300, so we're talking 75 or so. >> is that a correct? that's correct. thank you, i'm not good at math. >> that's a good one. that's a good one. lady who works at the place that calculates people's taxes. >> wow.

>> good morning. it's tuesday, may 14th, mike, you said you woke up this morning -- >> 1973. >> 1973, reading the paper. this is just stunning. it just keeps coming in waves, doesn't it? >> yeah. >> the state department stuff and the irs. >> the irs stuff. it's a huge story. >> it's frightening what happened on friday afternoon was frightening and then this "a.p." story when it broke yesterday afternoon -- just what's going on here, mike? >> i don't know what's going on here. maybe a little bit of what's going on here is the total isolation that can happen when you're in the white house, second term. that's an element of it. but the combination of the internal revenue service story and the fact that they went after the phone records of "associated press" reporters -- >> it's shocking and, mika, of

course, we're going to be talking about this "associated press" story. a story that the "new york times" this morning quotes first amendment experts and free press advocates as shock iing -- and have the executive editor of the "associated press." it is one story after another after another falling. what are the boundaries of this administration? and these are the questions we have to start asking after an irs -- i would call it a scandal. this "associated press" surveillance of reporters at their home, on their cell phones. these two stories sound nixonian. >> well, let's get to our top story. we'll start there. the justice department is under

fire today for using a secret subpoena to obtain two months of phone records from the "associated press's" reporters and editors. the doj sees the records of more than 20 separate phone lines used by the company's employees including home phones and cell phones. and the main member for the "a.p." in the house representative press gallery. in all, more than 100 journalists were subject to the investigation. a senior official tells nbc news the subpoena was necessary to avoid a, quote, substantial threat to the integrity of an ongoing investigation. that investigation is linked to the leak of information about a cia operation in yemen that stopped a terror attack. as many as six "a.p." reporters who worked on that story were among those targeted by the government. in a letter to attorney general eric holder, the a.p.'s president writes in part this, there can be no possible justification for such an

overboard collection of the telephone communications of the associated press and its reporters. we regard this action by the department of justice as a serious interference with the "a.p.'s" constitutional rights to gather and report the news. while the white house says it has no knowledge of the seizure, the obama administration has taken significant steps in recent years to investigate the disclosure of classified information. and joining us here in new york, we have the executive editor for the "associated press," kathleen carol. thanks for being with us. a day after this story drops, what's your -- first of all, your response to what the white house has said about the seizure? >> well, obviously, we're distressed that the justice department felt the need to seize our records and not tell us about it. certainly distressed as our ceo said in his protests to the justice department that the scope of the inquiry's so huge.

more than 100 journalists for the "a.p." work at the places whose phone numbers and phone records were seized by the justice department. >> kathleen, the origins of the investigation have to do with a story that the "a.p." broke on a plot in yemen that originated in yemen, correct? >> we're not entirely sure about that, but that's our best guess. >> but at the time that that story ran, it ran after the associated press cooperated with the government's request to delay the story, is that correct? >> that is correct. >> when did you find out from the department of justice, from the government that these records were subpoenaed that the justice department was eavesdropping on reporters? >> we got a very brief e-mail friday afternoon from the u.s. attorney and the district of columbia saying that they had these records of these 20 phone lines. >> and did it outline in that notification to you? did it outline the time frame in which they were eavesdropping on

reporters? >> april and may of 2012. >> that vague? >> yep. >> kathleen, you say over 100 reporters' phones were -- phone records were seized by the government? >> it's 20 different phone lines, joe, and they include main numbers. if you count all the journalists who would be making calls in and out of those phone numbers, it would be more than 100. >> what's so surprising here, mike, is of course other administrations have done this, have made mistakes in 2004, the fbi mistakenly did this and apologized for an indonesian office. this goes right to the core of the "associated press'" mission. what is the impact of having the phone records of 100 reporters of the "associated press" seized by the government? >> well, it's clearly distressing to think that without our knowledge someone is looking at phone calls that we

make in the course of daily business and not all of them would be involving the kind of reporting on the story that mike mentioned, the national security story. it would be calling police officers to see what's going on on a burning house, it would be calling hospitals. it would be talking with government officials of every level, city, state, federal in the normal course of business. >> it would also be talking to whistleblowers, members of the federal government, people and agencies, sources, saying things not only about the administrati administration, but other government officials. do you find this to be a chilling, intimidating breach of the associated press' constitutional -- you're smiling. i see carl smiling here. if i'm a reporter and i just found out i was chasing a story with sources that were scared to

talk to me and now the federal government, the justice department has their phone numbers inside their agencies, that's chilling not only to the "associated press," but to your sources. >> obviously we find this very distressing, and i think the ceo put it best in the very strongly worded letter that he sent yesterday to eric holder, the attorney general. i mean, i've been in this business more than 30 years and our first amendment lawyers and our lawyers inside the "a.p." and our ceos also well known first amendment lawyer, none of us have seen anything like this. >> and the quote from that statement, these records potentially reveal communications with confidential sources across all news gathering activities taken by the "a.p." during a two-month period provide a road map to the news gathering operations and disclose information about "a.p.'s" activities and operations. the government has no conceivable right to know. >> i want to get to lisa myers

in a second. kathleen, hold on, i don't know if you want to ask a question. >> it is outrageous, tote i all inexcusable. the object of it is to intimidate people who talk to reporters. this was an accident waiting to become a nuclear event. and now it's happened. there's no excuse for it whatsoever. there's no reason for this investigation, especially on this scale. is there statutory for it? probably. is there justification for it in terms of recognizing what the right to a free press is and what a free press means in this country? this is intimidation, it's wrong, the president of the united states should've long ago put a stop to this in his presidency. >> and as the times reported today, carl, this administration has done this twice as often as all other previous administrations combined.

>> the numerical thing doesn't matter, this is a matter of policy, it is known to the president of the united states that this is the policy. to say there was no knowledge in, quote, specifically about this in the white house is nonsense. this is a policy matter and this does go to the president, to the people around him, to the national security. >> the word intimidation. it's not just about intimidating reporters, but more importantly as you know better than anybody, it's about intimidating sources inside -- >> yes, the idea is to try to make an example of those people who talk to reporters, especially on national security matters, national security is always the false claim of administrations trying to hide things that people ought to know. 2: the news organizations have become very good at working with administrations in terms of real national security matters. this is inexcusable. it is intimidating. there is no reason that a

presidency that is interested in a truly free press and its functioning should permit this to happen. >> kathleen carol from the "associated press," thank you very much. >> we appreciate it. >> joining us now from washington, nbc news senior investigative correspondent lisa myers. we're going to move on at one point to the irs scandal. but lisa, i'd love for you to jump in and with your take on this story. >> well, i totally agree with what carl just said. this is extraordinary. you know, it's never good if you're an administration and your name appears in the same story as richard nixon twice in the same week. and this is what has happened now with the obama administration. i think the obama administration's critics would also say their prosecution of leaks is selective, that they didn't have that much problem when details leaked about the successful raid on the compound of osama bin laden, yet they have vigorously pursued leaks in

other cases. the chairman of the judiciary committee, patrick leahy raised the issue yesterday. he questioned whether the administration really could've met the threshold required to obtain this kind of sweeping subpoena of information. he said he was very troubled and wants specifics from the government on what they had that merited such an overly broad action. >> mike, and that's the problem here. overly broad is the term that the "associated press" has used. it's the term that constitutional scholars have used. by casting such a wide net as this statement from the "a.p." says, they now have communications with confidential sources, the government does, the obama administration. for all news gathering activities undertaken by the

"a.p." that provides a road map for the federal government to the "a.p.'s" news operations, and discloses information about the activities and operations as carl says, they said, oh, well, it's about this operation in yemen possibly. they hide behind national security, they have just basically torn down the wall between the federal government and the news organization that half the world gets its news from. and they now know their operations, their sources, everything, it's shocking. >> the scope of the subpoena is stunning, actually. multiple cities, hundreds of reporters, several different phones, including a phone in the house of representatives' press gallery. >> can you believe that. >> everybody uses that phone. >> can you believe that? >> once you start on this path, it expands. that's what happens, that's why you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. >> gets to government

incompetence. >> well, the incompetence is not foreseeing this is going to blow up in your face. >> yeah. >> there's no excuse for this because it is targeted at intimidation. there's no reason for that. >> and, you know, yesterday, mika, we were talking about carl said this administration is not criminal like the nixon administration. i said, well, at least they're incompetent, we all agreed on that, in these matters. but you know what, this goes beyond incompetence. this is sinister. this is -- the decision by the federal government to seize these phone records goes far beyond incompetence. and that's what's so disturbing this morning. >> just one other aspect that deserves mentioning. and that is that every day, people in high levels of every administration are talking to reporters and disclosing national security information. indeed of the type that they're looking for here. very high officials every day

are doing this for their own reasons. so this is selective, it's -- there's no reason for it beyond that which is nefarious. it's simple as that. and it's dangerous and it shouldn't be excused. >> and from that at 15 after, we go to this story about the irs. despite growing calls for condemnation, president obama had stayed out of the irs scandal that is until yesterday. the president addressed the agency's role in targeting organizations with the word tea party in the name and others that had conservative ideologies yesterday. the president came out in full force saying that kind of behavior is not acceptable in his administration. >> if, in fact, irs personnel engaged in the kind of practices that have been reported on and were intentionally targeting conservative groups, then that's outrageous. and there's no place for it.

and they have to be held fully accountable. we'll wait and see what exactly all the details and the facts are. but i've got no patience with it. i will not tolerate it and we'll make sure that we find out exactly what happened on this. >> the agency said the scandal was limited to low-level workers at a cincinnati field office. but now the "washington post" reports at least two irs officials based in d.c. were also involved with the investigation. >> and really quickly, a very important point, they're talking about a low-level field office in cincinnati. i got this wrong yesterday morning. it's not like, oh, you know, it's not like the office in scranton, right? >> right. >> no, they have set this up as the national center for this type of work. so this is the national office. it's not a low-level field office in ohio. and that is the spin from the supporters of the president. oh, you know, this was just a

field, a couple of guys come in from applebee's and had rib lets and got this crazy idea -- no. this was the national office for what they were doing. >> oh, boy. lisa myers is shaking her head. what are you thinking, lisa? >> well, in a matter of four days, much of what the irs told us on friday has turned out to be at best incomplete and in some cases, simply untrue. you have the fact that it was not just a couple of rogue employees in cincinnati that the paper trail shows there were clearly documents, letters that went out from washington with these incredible requests for documentation, including asking for groups list of donors, over $2,000. you've had -- we've learned that the targeting was more extensive than they admitted. it began earlier than they admitted, and that the -- the two irs commissioners, the

previous and the acting commissioner both were told about all this a year ago. yet they failed to correct the record with congress and they continued to maintain in correspondence that there was no targeting. >> right. so given the fact that the house, ways and means committee has set hearings for this on friday, carl, and there's a senate side, as well, is what the president said enough? >> no, because first of all, there's a treasury secretary in the united states. and the irs reports to the department of the treasury -- part of the department of the treasury. look, is this being politicized in trying to pin things on the president these events in some way together? yes, but does that mean that there's any excuse whatsoever up to near the top and maybe the top of the irs for what happened here? this is an organization that has to be sacrificed -- >> and, by the way -- >> there's no possible excuse. >> as you know, i mean, you said the top of the irs, who do they report to?

they report to jack lew. there's a reason harry truman put on his desk, the buck stops here. i'm not saying the president knew, i'm also not saying the president didn't know. we don't know that now because of their behavior in what happened after the attacks on benghazi, mike barnicle, and therein lies the problem for this administration with benghazi. are voters going to go in 2014 other than conservative voters who can always vote against the president anyway? are they going to be thinking about benghazi? no, they're not. but when other crises like this come up. they're going to say, wait a second. they didn't really tell us the truth about how the benghazi thing went down. are they telling us the truth about the irs? can we believe what they're going to say about the "associated press." this is going from mere incompetence to what is beginning to look like a pattern if you're inside the white house, you have to blow that narrative up fast and i don't know if they're aggressive enough to do that.

2:00 to say i screwed up, it is our responsibility for what happened, and by the way, if i'm the president of the united states, i'm calling eric -- i would, i'd be calling eric holder into my office and have one question for him, you've got to explain to me, eric, why i keep you on. >> absolutely. >> why do you keep your job? >> no, absolutely. you've got to call the attorney general in on -- and say, eric, it's time to go. it's time to go. and it is time to go off of these -- but the -- maybe the larger issue here is what happens to immigration? what happens to gun control? what happens to every item on the agenda for president obama's second term? difficult enough already. with this stuff, what do people think about this out there? they think that the government is totally out of control. totally -- >> they are out of -- they seem to be out of control. and, again, the fact that this

has hit one after another after another after another, lisa, is shocking. i want to end this segment with something that carl said that i thought -- as i always agree with everything carl says. this is for me as i'm reading the "a.p." story, i'm trying to put it together with everything i've known and you've known and carl's known and mike and all of us. and michael and mika that have grown up in and around this business in washington because i'm going, wait, isn't this what reporters have been doing since vietnam? isn't this what reporters are supposed to be doing? aren't they supposed to be calling to see if the government is lying to us? if they're telling us the truth, if the governors are spinning the war. isn't what the "associated press" has been subpoenaed for and attacked for, isn't that the most basic of reporters'

responsibility when they wake up in the morning and go to work and start picking up the phone and making calls? >> it is. and the "associated press" in particular as an institution has been more aggressive, i would say, in the last couple of years in trying to do more investigative work and dig out more stories. and this administration has a history of really coming down on people who talk to reporters in any capacity. i mean, if someone has the audacity to say something critical of obama care, they take -- usually take it back fairly quickly or don't speak to reporters at all again because there is such a focus on keeping the story line and the narrative the way the administration wants it. and sometimes these efforts can become excessive. and may be what we're seeing from the justice department is really the embodiment of that mentality. >> we were so critical of the bush administration in dealing with the press at times. it's just a little perspective

here. >> a lot of perspective. >> they didn't like it either. >> no, they did not. >> off of what lisa and carl have been saying, people don't like the media, we understand that. we understand that. but think if the press had been more bullish, more bulldogish on the start-up to the war in iraq on the weapons of mass destruction. think about if the press had been more bulldog on the gulf of tonkin in 1964, think of the lives that would have been saved if the doors were open and light shined on two wars that perhaps did not have to happen. >> we've got to go back to the pentagon papers. these investigations are always meant for a political purpose more than anything not for genuine national security leaks. >> all right. lisa myers, thank you very much. good to have you back on. coming up on "morning joe," olympia snowe will be here. also congressman keith ellison

and singer amy grant joins us. and later, from the hit show "nurse jackie," bobby canavale. have i got that? up next, the top stories in the politico playbook, but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. another beautiful march morning inner the northeast. windchills this morning down into the 30s and some cases the 20s. this is bitterly cold air we're dealing with despite the sun coming up. 25 is the windchill in binghamton, new york. one of the coldest i've been able to find. you need the hat and gloves for the kids this morning in the middle of may. good news this time of year, of course, the sun is up there for a long time. it will warm us up. it'll be a nice afternoon, but just, this cold this early in the morning is ridiculous. yesterday, the middle of the country, 93 in fargo, record temperatures through a lot of the portions of the inner mountain west.

and chicago, you're 18 degrees warmer right now at this hour than at this time yesterday. in chicago, you're going to get the benefit of that. you're going to feel like a summer afternoon. 87. we also are going to approach the record high in minneapolis and 95 today. so the east coast, we have record lows this morning. and the midwest, we're going to have record highs. just an upsidedown spring. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. 2:00 have a gooood nig. here youou go. you, , too. i'm goining to dream about t that steaka. i'i'm going toto dream about thatat tiramisu.u. whwhat a nightht, huh? but, u um, can thehe test drivie be over nonow? head b back to the d dealership?p? [ mamale announcncer ] it's praractically y yours. but we stitill need yourur signaturere. volklkswagen sigign then dririe is back. anand it's nevever been eaeasir to get a a passat. that's's the powerer of german n engineerining. get $0$0 down, $0 0 due at sig, $0 depososit,

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over any other carrier? many choose us because we have the largest 4glte network. others, because of our reputation for reliability. or maybe it's because we've received jd power and associates' customer service award 4x in a row. in the end, there are countless reasons. but one choice. . all right 29 past the hour, let's take a look at the morning papers. the "new york times" hedge fund manager daniel loeb is pressing sony to break up the entertainment and electronic divisions of the company. 6.5% stake in sony, making him

one of the biggest shareholders. >> that would be huge news. >> my walkman. >> yeah. los angeles times popular tv psychologist dr. joyce brothers has passed away. brothers had her own television show on nbc where she gave advice on personal problems, but she was best known for her frequent appearances on johnny carson's "tonight show." she was 85 years old. "toronto sun international," chris hadfield and the rest of the team landed in russia last night, spending five months in space during which chris became a viral youtube sensation for his cover of david bowie's "space odyssey." ♪ >> it's good stuff.

even praise from bowie himself. you don't have a lot of stuff to do up there, right? press a couple of buttons, that is awesome. >> all right. joining us now -- >> that's beyond awesome. okay. from awesome to awful. >> yeah. wow. >> we just crashed to earth fast, didn't we? >> why do we do this? >> i don't know. hey, jim. >> jim vandehei. one of your lead stories this morning, how the irs scandal will lead to a campaign finance free for all. take it away. >> right. i mean -- we're dealing with three or four different scandals or big screw-ups in realtime. and i think the irs one in the short-term is most problematic for this white house given that there are seems to be new evidence that conflicts. >> isn't it stunning? i mean, you've been reporting in washington for 20 years or so, isn't it stunning the number of

stories you call them scandals or serious screw-ups. >> i don't know what's worse at this point. >> they keep falling one after another. when you saw the "a.p." story break yesterday afternoon, i'm sure you were like me going, when is this going to end? >> 1/3rd of all house committees right now are investigating the president. that's how many different things are unfolding that congress thinks it needs to take a look at. and you could dismiss each one or one or two of these as saying it's a partisan witch hunt. i don't think anyone's dismissing it as anything other than a scandal. there's no doubt they were using the federal government to target their conservative critics in a way that everybody on both sides thinks is totally inappropriate. the irs is a huge issue that's not going away. the stuff that broke last night is astonishing. and it's really problematic because the press writ large is extremely up in arms and rightly so.

and it's just a breadth of what the government seems to be doing here. if they do it, it's supposed to be extraordinary circumstances, it has to be signed off by the attorney general himself and it has to be narrowly limited. there's nothing narrow about the scope of this, about the duration of records that they're seeking. no wonder the "a.p." is outraged. no wonder every reporter is outraged. this is an extraordinary breach of the relationship between government and the media. >> it certainly is. michael steele, too, it is very important politically for the republican party now not to overreach. >> sometimes you just get out of the way. i mean the republicans on the hill that want to come out and say something over the top to raise money are hurting the party and also hurting the investigation. right now, you've got an enraged press corps that understands what a serious breach this is. and i just hope they don't overplay their hand. >> well, from benghazi to the

irs to now the "a.p." story. there was always this push to kind of make everybody pay attention to this. we want you to see this story. okay. so now we see it. let the story, the narrative unfold. let the, you know, the bernsteins of the world frame the argument here from the perspective of the press. let, you know, the irs story unfold itself and not have the republican party get in the way of the unpacking. >> let them unpack, have your hearings. but again, don't overreach. >> don't overreach. >> because this is damning enough. >> and let me tell you, pull down the anti-hillary commercials now because it's doing no good. it's framing the argument in a way that takes -- that takes the focus off of the underlying point you're trying to score. >> you know, bill crystal actually bougrought this up. saying the anti-hillary commercials, jim vandehei were

actually the -- that karl rove putting out there was actually hurting the investigation because it politicizes the investigation from the very beginning. instead of, you know, letting reporters go after the irs. 2:00. >> and that's the big worry. if speaker boehner could talk to his members, he would say, put a sock in it. don't start talking about impeachment, talking about how the benghazi scandal is ten times worse than watergate. then they're going to turn the obama administration into sympathetic figures. when the truth is, there are legitimate questions in each one of these categories that need to be looked at, that need to be examined in congressional hearings that need to be investigated by reporters. trust me, every media organization is now in overdrive. they're going to investigate the heck out of all four of these. and i would throw sort of the implementation to health care into that mix because as people start to get more and more skeptical about the reach of

government, people are going to pay a lot of attention to the implementation of health care in the role that the white house has in that. and i think people are going to want to do stories about it. people are going to want to read about it. so the danger for republicans is they overreach. and in the past, they tend to do that. 2:00. >> "politico's" jim vandehei, thank you very much. up next, an abortion doctor convicted on three counts of murder for killing babies born alive. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] i've seen incredible things.

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all right. joining us now from philadelphia criminal court reporter for the philadelphia enquirer. covering the trial of gosnell from the beginning. first of all, take us through yesterday's verdict. i take it prosecutors will be seeking the death penalty here. >> that's correct, mika. we had dr. gosnell found guilty of three counts of first-degree murder involving the deaths of three babies, the jury determined were born alive and killed by the doctor or members of his staff. the judge has given the jury a week off. they come back next tuesday. and then they'll begin hearing evidence in the penalty phase to determine whether dr. gosnell

should be put to death or sentenced to life in prison with no opportunity for parole. >> and then there's a fourth victim as well in the charges against him? >> there were originally four counts of first-degree murder. the jury acquitted him of one. they found him guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a virginia woman named kamaya mongar. she was administered too much demerol during an abortion procedure and went into cardiac arrest. >> the "washington post" has put this actually above the fold, this story above the fold, for some time, conservative groups were suggesting that reporters wither dismissing this. some have dismissed it as a local story. but it seemed to have picked up a national following over the past month or so.

have you noticed that in the courtroom? >> well, there are certainly, probably two dozen reporters in the courtroom yesterday for the verdict. most of the major networks were present. all the local media were present, and i certainly did a number of calls from foreign media last night. so i think the interest is there. >> what is the likelihood in pennsylvania? what are the -- what are the standards for a jury coming back and deciding to -- whether they give gosnell the death penalty or not? what will the jury be determining in their deliberations? >> well, the defense will have to put up what are known as mitigating factors, mitigating against the imposition of the death penalty. and they could be things such as -- well, there's one category that's actually called a catch

all which could include anything from his life story to possible good works he's done early in his career to pleas from his own children not to sentence him to death. the prosecution is certain to do a reprieve of the basic testimony at trial. this is a man as they say essentially for profit flouted the abortion control act in pennsylvania, performed late-term abortions, did it for cash without regard to the lives of infants or the women undergoing abortions. >> joe, when was the last time the death penalty was used in pennsylvania? >> i believe it was 1995. essentially, the death penalty has only been used three times in pennsylvania since it was reenacted. and in all three of those cases, the inmates waived their appeal

rights and asked to be killed. there really has not been a contested death penalty in pennsylvania since the law was reenacted. >> thank you so much for your coverage. >> thank you, joe. >> thank you, mika, joe. the must-read opinion pages, you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. kids are like sponges. they soak up everything. especially when it comes to what you say and do. so lead by example and respect others. you won't let prejudice into your home. the more you know. we're not in london, are we? no. why? apparently my debit card is. what? i know. don't worry, we have cancelled your old card. great. thank you.

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swaggering during a traffic stop. give me that badge number. it is precisely because police powers are essential to the public good and that abusing them is so offensive. the same holds for overzealous airport security agents and doubly true with irs personnel who misuse their broad and intimidating powers. it is enough to bring out the samuel adams in anyone. the "wall street journal" writes this. the irs wants you. asked about the irs news on monday, mr. obama said that if, in fact, irs personnel targeted conservatives, that would be outrageous. and those responsible would be held accountable. that's nice to hear, but he was making conditional what the irs has already admitted, which is not as bad as what we're learning it really did. and finally, in the "washington post," obama's second term blues set in. obama's response did him little good because it failed to get

him out in front of the scandal. rather than taking quick action, firing those involved or opening an investigation with more teeth than the inspector generals, he's left himself at the mercy of events and will be called to respond as details dribble out. this was exactly his problem with benghazi. if obama wishes to avoid the endless scandals that plague many second term presidents, he needs to say more sooner. >> mike, presidents circle the wagon, especially in the second term, a sort of arrogance sets in over an entire administration. we've seen it time and time again, and tragically, i think we're seeing it with this administration. >> oh, you saw it yesterday. i mean, the president is trying to get out in front of this. the only way is to fire someone. he's got to fire someone. someone's got to be fired. the irs has admitted. >> i'd put everybody on leave until you figure it out. >> no, fire -- you've got to fire. people have to be fired here. >> well, of course. of course. >> they're going to be fired.

i think we've got to be careful c conflating all of this too much. eric holder, i think we've got three different things going on. looks like a fire storm and it's very important to be careful to separate them, see what involves the presidency itself, benghazi is not the same as irs. there's a terrific piece in the "new york times" by its conservative columnist david brooks today putting some sense into benghazi. question which is really separable from the rest of this. eric holder and the investigation into leaks and wiretapping is not about eric holder because it's about administration policy. >> so you actually said on this one -- >> on this one. >> this one goes to the top. this is the president's -- >> it's a matter -- >> this is the president's policy. >> it's a matter of policy, it's not illegal, there's statutory authority for it and it's wrong. >> it's abusive. >> it's a terrible policy. and the white house ought to be held account able for a terribl

policy. this is not the criminalization of the white house. but nonetheless, there's no excuse for what's happening there. >> carl, you say that, you know, benghazi is separate from the others. i would agree with that. but there is an underlining fundamental point here in how the administration handles bad news. handles situations in which it exposes itself sometimes unnecessarily, often times prematurely. and you're looking at whether it's the benghazi story, the "a.p." story or any other story, a scandal out there. the president sets back from it, he doesn't move into it to take advantage of -- >> mike barnicle, though, the one thing that ties all three together also, though, is this president and the administration, they do not handle dissent well. you look at benghazi, they just weren't telling the truth about benghazi, five, six, seven days later. still bristling at a press

conference yesterday, trying to blame what they did in the fall on the republicans. and we'll see what happens with the irs, but it's the same thing with the "a.p." story. as carl says, their policy has been overly aggressive. and maybe it's not illegal, i think most reporters are saying this morning is abusive at the very least. >> the scope of the "a.p." story is overwhelming. it's overwhelming the numbers involved. but the "a.p." story and the benghazi story. there's still large elements of both of those stories we don't know a whole lot about. the irs story we know. we know what they did. someone's got to go now. >> yeah. and it should be just that. that's going to happen. taking action and it's going to -- i don't know. >> there's another op-ed. >> angelina jolie has announced she's taken dramatic steps for her health, undergoing a double mastectomy after doctors predicted she had a high chance of developing breast and ovarian cancer. in the "new york times," jolie

writes in part this, i wanted to write this to tell other women that the decision to have a mastectomy was not easy. but it's one i'm very happy that i made. my chances of developing breast cancer have dropped from 87% to under 5%. i can tell my children that they don't need to fear they will lose me to breast cancer. for any woman reading this, i hope it helps you to know that you have options. i want to encourage every woman, especially if you have a family history of breast or ovarian cancer to seek out the information and medical experts who can help you through this aspect of your life and make your own informed choices. >> mika, courageous of her to come out and talk about something so personal in the "new york times." >> and i think a real service to women for sure. >> yeah. still ahead, olympia snowe joins us for what she calls a fight for common ground. also, peter sagel who is hitting the road to see the u.s. constitution in action. "morning joe" is back in a

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welcome back to "morning joe." a lot straight ahead.

we're going to be talking, of course, about the irs investigation that continues to unfold the "a.p." story that just broke yesterday afternoon. and much more. by the way tonight, we're going to be barnes and noble in princeton, new jersey, talking about mika's book "obsession." and we'll have a special guest tonight. >> yes, we are. >> chris christie will be there for an hour. it's going to be interesting. and i think i'm going to stay out of the way and let mika and chris talk about stuff. straight ahead, talking about everything that's going on in washington, there is so much going on. we've got nbc's david gregory, andrea mitchell and the "national journal's" ron fournier. oh, he's a fighter alright. since aflac is helping with his expenses while he can't work, he can focus on his recovery. he doesn't have to worry so much about his mortgage, groceries, or even gas bills. kick! kick... feel it! feel it! feel it! nice work! ♪ you got it! you got it! yes!

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facts don't matter to that side. in their paranoid fever dreams, the state department and the cia changing talking points is irrefutable evidence obama left people to die so he could swing ohio despite there being no shred of evidence to validate their right wing persecution victimization complex. >> the internal revenue service admitted today that some of its employees targeted conservative political groups for extra scrutiny in violation of its own policy and despite its earlier denials. >> mother [ bleep ]! son of a [ bleep ]!

no, mother [ bleep ]! what? what did you do? >> oh, my god. how funny is that? >> michael steele, all back with us. >> i can't wait to see what he says about this "a.p." story tonight. >> joining us from washington -- oh, that'll be good. the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. and ron fournier. good to have you all onboard at the top of the hour here. >> mike and carl, mika, mike and i have been talking this first hour, david gregory, about everything that's hitting in washington, d.c. we've got vertigo. i mean, it's -- i'm serious. >> mike doesn't know what year it is. can you tell me? >> you know, well, mike says it seems like 1973, but i remember when the news came across on

friday about the irs. and yesterday afternoon, this "a.p." story broke, which may be actually the most damning yet, david gregory. >> well, i mean, especially taking together these things are appalling and jon stewart to a point to say, look, obama's critics may be overboard and get more and more ammunition that feeds this same idea. all of this now happening one after the other after the other. fournier and i, saying, my god, who's going to ask what when? you do this, i'll do that. >> as a guy that covered an administration during a war, talk about how serious what the justice department did to the "associated press," a news organization that half the world gets its news from. >> well, i think it's very serious. and during the bush administration over national

security matters, the president was very angry about leaks. this administration has been very aggressive about doing that. and we learn more facts about what was the justification to be extraordinary circumstance for something overly broad. i think that will start to come together. but again, the potential chilling effect in a battle between government and reporters that goes back decades where both sides essentially are doing the best they can do, to get information or restrict information. but this is the idea of -- without, you know, putting everything together, without creating a narrative, the fact is that there are elements here of either incompetence or government running amuck. and let's be honest, joe, on policy matters over the last four years, this has been the huge debate in the country about the role of government in our lives. whether it's over the economy or over regulation. and this is something that feeds right into that. and so here we go.

>> ron fournier, let me go to you, as well. also, you know a lot about covering the white house. you know a lot about the associated press team. >> sure do. so ron, do you agree with the "a.p." this is unprecedented. that this is that breach of their constitutional rights to report on the government? >> i used to be the bureau chief of the washington bureau. i'll say two things. this is chilling. this is only meant to intimidate whistleblowers who want to get out embarrassing information about the administration into intimidate reporters. this is only to clamp down on information that might embarrass the president. that's all this is about. not only chilling, it is stupid. these folks are now going to double down on investigating the white house, on doing their jobs, they're not going to be intimidated. and specifically, reporters, adam goldman, pulitzer prize winning reporters, these folks

are not going to be intimidated by this. they're going to work harder, and there'll be more stories broke open than washington has subpoenas. the "a.p." is not the kind of news organization you want to tick off . >> is this unprecedented, ron? >> we've had past administrations who didn't want to be embarrassed, clamp down on leaks and have done this kind of thing. nobody has gone to this extent to go after the largest news organization, right at the heart of the media, the news organization that serves everybody else with as broad sweeping fishing expedition. it is unprecedented, it is chilling and it is plain stupid. >> so andrea mitchell, i'd like you to have at it here, is what ron is saying in perspective, certainly there were those who were critical of say the bush administration and their handling of the press. >> well, one of the problems is that in a narrow technical sense, the scale is certainly unprecedented. but the problem that i think you were discussing earlier this morning, in fact, it is not unprecedented for this administration to go after reporters, journalists on

national security issues under the law and to expand it. now previously, we've known it was a case against the baltimore sun, the "new york times." one individual or two individuals. to go after it in the sweeping way is chilling. now, they will respond with the details of this counterterror investigation that they say was being compromised. but the bottom line, as far as as i understand it, the "a.p." agreed to withhold the information, was not publishing. so the immediate effect of compromising an investigation and terrorist strike in yemen was not at issue. >> david gregory, over 100 reporters the "a.p." says affected by this. this goes to the very heart of the associated press's responsibility. the most important media outlet many would say in the entire world. and as the times article was

saying this morning, and also as "a.p." chief was saying, they now know our sources. they know our means to get information from the government. they now can find other whistleblowers in areas that have nothing to do with this one specific story. they basically have knocked down the walls between the government and those who report on the government. >> let me underline, what's outrageous about this, we're not talking about an individual reporter or correspondent who is working on a particular story and they want to chase down the leak. this is overly broad to the point where you cast this wide net. and as ron said, of course this is meant to have a chilling effect on reporters. it's who they were talking to. to say other members of the government in these agencies, you know, are people who should really clamp down. and, again, of course it's so ironic because the justice department and the fbi well

known for their leaking, how it suits their interest. agency versus agency, congress versus agencies, the intersection of some of those conflicts is where you get information. to catch something this broad goes beyond what we've seen. >> it's so hypocritical for government officials who leak when it serves a purpose, mika. but i think the -- what's sad here is we don't elect to the office of the president, we don't elect a law of professors. if we elected somebody that understood our first amendment right. this is the most sacred -- oh, wait, never mind. >> joe, not to be flip about this, but as a political matter. >> i just walked right into that one. >> but, joe, to create some sort of sympathy for the press where there's not much. >> i know. we've got to work hard.

>> really. >> got to be for democrats and republicans to unite around the press. it's not going to be surprising for anybody out there to hear that members of journalists, you know, think this is outrageous, and there are members that would argue the press goes overboard in lots of ways, whether it's the leaking of information, the pursuit of information, so that point of view is out there, but as a political matter, the fact that you can unite a town. >> very damaging. >> very damaging. >> and, again -- >> the president of the "a.p." wrote a letter to eric holder and in part wrote this, there can be no possible justification for an overboard collection of the telecommunications. >> that's overbroad collection. there's a typo. but go ahead. >> okay. the "associated press" and its reporters, we regard this action by the department of justice as a serious interference with "a.p.'s" constitutional rights to gather and report the news.

>> ron, we've put a graph up, over 200 reporters. >> 100. >> over 100 reporters had their conversations. we don't really know the extent of what happened to 100 reporters. you mentioned that the "a.p." would now be determined as they always are to go after this story and other stories in a very energetic manner. but don't you think it's going to extend to the "national journal," the "washington post," "the globe," "new york times." all newspapers will be saying, well, what's going on here? let's take a look at other things. >> yeah. and it goes beyond even the story. one common thing with benghazi and the irs scandal, we're being misled every day. we were lied to on benghazi on the talking points behind benghazi for months, lied to by the irs for months and now

they're sending a clear message to our sources, don't embarrass the administration or we're coming after you. so it gives us all a pause. and i'm starting to wonder if maybe it's about time for the president to think, do i need a clean house here? do i need to bring in some people who know how to manage a crisis? who have maybe at least read masters of disaster, the book, who as you know ran the clinton scandals. they learned a long time ago that the first thing you do in a crisis is gather all the facts, especially the ones that are negative and embarrassing to you. and the second thing is release them right away, especially the ones that are negative to you. you don't dribble things out, don't mislead, don't distort, and then when it finally gets out, you don't whine about republicans, your critics when you're the reason that you're -- >> wasn't that unbelievable yesterday. >> it was stunning. it was stunning. >> the president of the united states with one scandal after another falling and like you said being caught, his administration being caught lying about benghazi, your

words, not mine. the irs lying, clearly lying, the president stands up in a press conference and republicans have politicized benghazi from the beginning. i have attacked republicans on the far right for politicizing benghazi from the beginning. for the president of the united states, though, to whine about republicans, while all of these scandals are falling. you say stunning, why? >> i've had the same kind of feeling a few times in my career. i've got it yesterday when the president did that, i got it when president bush said mission accomplished over iraq. that was outrageous. and i got it when president clinton stood in the roosevelt room, wagged his finger and said i did not have sex with that woman. when the president of the united states and can't shoot straight and get their stories straight, it undermines the credibility and makes it impossible for them to push back on legitimate points. for example, no one credibly thinks in benghazi they tried to let those people die.

there's a lot of things that a credible administration would be able to push back on, but they've muddied the water with the distortion. you can't dismiss the talking point controversy because it goes to the heart of your credibility. >> i think we have to look at the question of the competence of this white house and the insularity, i think that's part of this story, it's played into the hands of its enemies who e are -- >> what do you mean the insularity? >> the insularity meaning -- >> i know what the word means, explain -- >> this president has been reactive rather than getting out in front of many issues. he's failed to get out in front of all of these issues as a real leader should. he's allowed this perception of criminalization to come into things that are not criminal. he's played into the hands of his enemies. >> yeah. >> he's got people around him who don't know the town well. who don't know how to deal with these kind of crises.

at the same time, outrageous things have happened in which the president of the united states needs to say -- >> couple of things. first of all, on benghazi and the "a.p." story, the press and everyone else can peck away at it and they're really good questions. as far as the irs story, i'm surprised that the andrea mitchell the response has been so tepid and kind of very, very careful. i would go all out against what's happened if i were president obama and say these people are going to go down. this is not happening on my watch. >> well, that is the most surprising, perhaps, what we now know washington officials at the irs which reports to the treasury secretary were involved. carl levin, hardly a republican critic of the administration is going to be holding hearings on the senate side as well as the hearing on ways and means on the house side. the fact is that every american since richard nixon has had to feel their tax returns are not only private, but they will be

adjudicated and audited if necessary in a completely nonpartisan way. yes, they did have to look and see whether some of these groups were political rather than pro bono. but not in any kind of nonneutral way. the test had to be neutral. the fact they went after the tea party here as david said earlier feeds the republican critics, and this is one of the most outrageous excesses i've seen in all my years in journalism. we knew about the past national security probes, but i think this associated press investigation just rises to that standard, as well. the press is not popular, we are not popular. but this, i think, an outrageous invasion of constitutional rights. >> i just want to stop right there. it's remarkable, as long as you've been a reporter at the top of your game, to say that a scandal that broke on friday is

one of the most outrageous excesses, the irs scandal and then for us to talk about what happened yesterday that most reporters agreed with ron and you, it rises to that level, as well, to have two of these falling in two successive business days is going to require a dramatic reset inside the white house, is it not? >> and i don't see why they don't get that yet. perhaps the president did not want to do it standing next to another head of state, david cameron, then he could've come out later before going off fund raising in new york city and had a separate moment where he acknowledged the problems facing his presidency right now and took some dramatic action. >> david, from benghazi to "a.p." to irs, there's a lot out here right now that the administration has got to get in front of. and they've done as has been talked about, a miserable job of that. what do you see as happening next? what do you see the next step

unfolding over the next few days? particularly in my view probably should be getting out in front with you on "meet the press" this weekend to sit down and kind of expose all of this. how do you see this thing playing out over the next few days? do we frame it? do they continue to back off of it? what do you see happening here? >> i don't want to disagree with your media strategy. i think that's the way they ought to approach it. i think seriously, that's it. in a vacuum, there's all this connective tissue here that doesn't need to be there. all of these things are somehow related or go to similar motivation. it's like ron was saying about benghazi. there's a tremendous amount of overreach here that doesn't get us away from the point about what was mishandled or how they didn't respond to certain questions. and, you know, with senator feinstein who said on "meet the press" on sunday, i don't know why they didn't call this a terrorist attack when that's clearly what it was from day one. why did they drag their heels? i don't know, exactly. it's a very cautious administration.

and the reality is that members of the white house team, including the president have an opportunity here to go through all of these details. and if they want to break it all apart, talk about what they think is excessive, talk about where there was incompetence, a mistake made here or there. but really drive it. the president's posture all along on this was we're going to do an investigation and i'm not going to talk to you about it. anything a question for susan rice is total political excess. he said if you have a problem, why don't you direct it toward me and not toward her. whether it was me, joe, or mika had the opportunity to ask him about benghazi. instead of getting ahead of this and going through all of these details and just being totally forthcoming about it. and i think that's where the opportunity is here and the failure to do that allows for reporters, members of congress

to really start questioning matters of evasiveness, competence, or stone walling. >> mike barnicle. >> you've covered several presidents, we have an understanding of the isolation of the office, becomes more isolated the longer you're in the office. >> right. >> at what point does it happen that common sense can't penetrate that isolation? >> as soon as you start thinking that you're infallible and your president is infallible. and as soon as you start thinking that your enemies across the aisle and the folks in the media are all out to get you and are all beneath you. and you're above reproach, above challenge, above question. and any question to you is not a probing or sincere question, it's a gotcha or beneath us, or how can you challenge us on that? this white house like the bush white house in the second term, like the clinton white house especially in the second term does have that arrogance.

had it in the first term and really seems to have it in spades right now. and it's -- the chickens are coming home to roost. they have to realize that they're not above these questions. and they are going to have enemies who overreach, and they are going to have notty reporters who ask them nasty questions and ask them questions. it's their job to get the facts out when they know them. not waiting for a report, waiting for congress to leak the memos. talking about yesterday how these benghazi e-mails have been released to congress weeks ago. well, they weren't released to the public. and that's the problem. i think the most chance to be a game changer. if we find out in these hearings that somebody in the white house especially in the political shop or somebody in the campaign -- >> yeah -- >> knew about this political targeting of conservative groups, i think that could be something that could consume the

white house for the rest of his second term. >> given what ron just said -- >> that is the key. >> i'm not pleased to say that. >> of course we don't have any evidence of that, that's why you have investigations. >> david gregory, is there anyone not saying to the president you've got to come down strong on this, you've got to come out forcefully and strong and make it very clear whatever's going on here will be taken care of? i don't understand, ron's point about the bubble and being infallible, it kind of makes sense given the reaction we've seen so far. >> i don't know. there are certainly people there who should know well enough to help him. but the president is a very strong-willed person. and who has very definite views about the role of the press and the media culture, which i would describe his views as viewing a lot of it as sort of silly and not only that but a political culture that is bent on just sort of paralyzing washington. we've talked a lot about how

this is not somebody who goes up to capitol hill and work even members of his own party. >> is it safe to say that the president's attitude toward the press borders on contempt? let me ask ron that question. ron? ron, is it safe to say -- >> that's just -- >> this is important. that the president's attitude toward the press borders on contempt as does his attitude toward washington? >> yes, and in many respects, he has a right to be contempt of all of us in washington. >> exactly. >> but he also has the obligation to rise above us and get the facts down. if i can follow up on carl, you're exactly right, we don't know how far the irs goes. it could very well stop at high-level people in the irs and if the information gets out and a couple people get fired, thitl be done. >> but there'll be people in congress who are going to do what you did in watergate and they're going to find out how far this went up. and if it does go higher, we have some serious problems. >> andrea.

>> and joe, let me jump in quickly, talk about isolation, ronald reagan, yes, was isolated, so nancy reagan, reached out to bob strauss during iran contra, the leader of the democratic party, he came in and talked to the president and said you've got to bring in howard baker and clean up this mess. >> see. just how about a pr professional at this point? it's ridiculous. this is the irs and this is a really -- this will hurt you. in a big way, you need to come forward and talk to people about how this is going to be taken care of. >> there's a real competence question. and this goes to it. >> thank you so much for being with us. ron fournier. stick around, up next, former senator olympia snowe has a plan to fix a stalemate in washington. there's so much more for her to fix now. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. mamake a wish!h! i wish w we could lie e here forevever. i wish thihis test dririve was ,

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live look at capitol hill at 28 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." here with us now, former republican senator from maine, olympia snowe. she's out now with a new book. "fighting for common ground: how we can fix the stalemate in congress." wow, what timing, senator, for this book. >> yes. >> is it possible even at this point? and given the stories we are covering this morning, i think some are concerned about the future of this presidency and the ability to get some common ground going. >> welm, i think fighting common ground is needed more than ever, obviously. but especially now with these growing episodes with the lack of trust in government and the performance of government officials and an array of issues that have now been disclosed in revealing about the breadth and scope of government. and frankly, i always believe in a crisis in an emergency, you get to work that much harder to

address those issues but also rise above that as well and address all the other issues. and that's what congress and the president should be doing. >> do you see that happening, for example, with the irs or the "a.p." story in terms of the president's response and giving people some confidence here? >> the president should display and exhibit aggressive leadership on these questions. and the more that -- and sooner he can get everything out there and the whole and complete story in each of these issues and what took place, who's responsible, demand accountability, absolutely. and so that the american people have the full breadth of the stories and who perpetrated, you know, these incidents. it's serious, it goes to the trust of government today. it's bad enough as it is, and people are distrustful and, you know, the lowest public approval ratings in the history of

gallup. and now, they are facing these incidents where people are victimized, you know, by the scale and the powers of government bureaucracy. those powers should be exercised with circumspection and thoughtfulness and not to the degree of which we've heard about today. >> mike barnicle. >> senator, we were talking earlier in an earlier segment, you probably heard some of it about the isolation of the presidency, which is understandable. >> right. >> but is there an isolation, a bubble that occurs in -- within washington? within the congress that assists in the stalemate that politicians, senators, and congress people don't go home enough or don't realize what are on average people's minds. >> well, mike, i always believed there was a major detachment and disconnect between washington and the real world as i

described in many of my speeches over the last few years, i talked about that question. i thought that washington and congress specifically was removed from the daily life of the average person. and that's why they weren't galvanized to address some of the key issues with respect to the economy and how we could generate economic growth and provide jobs for the average person and raise the level and the quality of those jobs, as well. and as a result, you've seen this huge divide, i think, between the rest of america and washington, between main street and wall street. and so we had these persistent problems with subpar economic growth and job creation numbers and they seem to be satisfied in washington and content. this isn't as good as it gets, it should never be this way. we should be aspiring to the highest level. now in these time of crises ever more so, people should be pulling together. president and the congress should be working in concert.

>> i'm not sure they're satisfied with the jobs numbers in washington, but there certainly is not the improvement that we'd like to see. ron fournier has a question, jump in and we'll get into the nuts and bolts of the book. ron? >> yeah, senator, thank you for coming on. did you happen to catch the president's speech the other day? it was a really good speech when he talked about the public's growing cynicism with government. and used the phrase i think that people believe government, i think this quote is right, is a sinister entity. he's at his best when he talks about the need to come together as a community. he was a community organizer. in that we need to restore the faith in government. two questions. one, do you think that he's done a good job the first four years of his presidency. and secondly, how could these instances that are going on now affect that trend? >> well, i think first and foremost, the only way you can

really repair the trust of people and government, between the president and congress and the people in this country is to produce results on the key issues that matter to the country. and all the public is witnessing is the polarization and the divide that has separated them from their government and their elected officials. can't understand why both sides can't come together at this time for what is in the best interest of the country. i've been traveling all over the country. i'm on college campuses and they're so distraught, frankly, about the discourse and the partisan bickering and the harsh rhetoric that's fueling the legislative stalemate and deadlock and say who are they representing? why are they working for us? why aren't they concerned about the common good of the country? so the president could certainly have done a better job in reaching out with congress. i mean, after all, there's only one president. he has a major megaphone and has

to reach out. what are we going to get done? and how are we going to accomplish it? to drive that engine. i always believe in being the engine, not the caboose. >> so you write in the book about, especially about your last term. your senator's willingness to reach across the aisle had become a scarlet letter instead of a badge of honor. and you were frustrated with that when you left. you have suggested reforms for fighting for common ground. adhere to five-day workweeks, institute filibuster reform, require biannual budgets, create a more open amendment process. and give us a sense as to why you think this might help break what we're seeing happening in washington which hasn't changed. >> well, a couple of things. we want to be able to, first, demonstrate to people that there are some realtime solutions that can occur. and that's why being part of the bipartisan policy center in conjunction with my book have

launched an initiative called citizens for political reform. the common ground project which is to be a catalyst for people to be able to tune in and get realtime insights on what's happening with congress, what's holding up the passage of legislation. why aren't they working on a number of things. and also to seek the common ground options and demand bipartisanship on the part of lawmakers. and that's one avenue. the other avenue is, yes, to institute reforms. five-day workweeks, should they be working for five days a week? but you understand how it is. it's time to leave. congress hasn't even gotten the gears the legislative machinery up and running and they're leaving town. you can't concentrate on key issues and not being there to give it the time and resources necessary. so a simple five-day workweek. how about a budget?

we don't have a budget. they haven't had a budget conference between the house and senate. they've been heralding the fact they passed a budget in the house and senate. they don't have a budget conference, not conferring over the differences. the law was to pass a budget by april 15th. that's come and gone. april 15th, by the way, when we're filing our taxes. for four years, the senate didn't even have a budget, the government doesn't have a budget. those are failures that people understand and goes to the heart of the distrust. and you add the overweight of these episodes and these problems that exist whether it's benghazi, irs or the "a.p." issue with the justice department and it's breathtaking. >> you're already dealing with a discouraged electorate for sure. former senator olympia snowe, thank you so much. >> thank you, mika. >> little depressing. >> yeah. >> come on, now. >> you can do it.

>> i know. >> we got to make them do it. >> read the book. >> the conversation continues online. visit afternoonmojoe.com. for an official web extra green room sit-down with former senator snowe. ron fournier, thank you, as well. we'll be back with more "morning joe." [ kitt ] you know what's impressive? a talking car. but i'll tell you what impresses me. a talking train. this ge locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what it's carrying, while using less fuel. delivering whatever the world needs, when it needs it. ♪ after all, what's the point of talking if you don't have something important to say?

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coming up, who says public television -- well, actually everybody. but peter sagel revs up his bike to see how the big constitutional questions affect main street america. "morning joe" is going to be right back. when it came to our plants, we were so confused.

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we're making it. i'm on expert on softball. and tea parties. i'll have more awkward conversations than i'm equipped for, because i'm raising two girls on my own. i'll worry about the economy more than a few times before they're grown. but it's for them, so i've found a way. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. ready to plan for your future? we'll help you get there. ♪ here with us now, singer and song writer amy grant out with her first studio album in ten years. >> holy cow. so 19, your first studio album

since you were 19 years old. >> exactly. >> that's exciting. got to be so exciting. >> oh, i'm so glad -- welcome to "morning joe," amy. >> good morning. >> how mercy looks from here. >> how awesome does this look, mika? >> the people you work with here, beyond the fact it's you, james taylor, carol king, you have some great collaborations here. >> what was it like working with carol? >> well, timing is everything. i had just finished the song that i invited her to sing on and two weeks after that, she -- i was invited to be a part of the benefit, it was a lot of us together singing carol king songs with carol. alicia keys was there, katy perry, a lot of us were just, carol -- >> yes, exactly. >> but i said, hey, would you sing on a song of mine? and she said -- >> well, we know carol, she's a real diva, she probably threw things against the wall and

screamed because she's so intense. she's so laid back and great. and james taylor, what a thrill that had to be, as well. >> that was a thrill. >> yeah. >> i asked him to sing on a song back in the late '90s and he said, sure, send it up. and i sent it and he called me back and said this is not a good song. >> oh, my god. >> so, j.t.'s not afraid to speak his mind. >> you know what, that's why he's fantastic. he's got good taste. >> got a sense of what he wants. tell us about the concept of how mercy looks from here. i understand it's all sort of revolving around a very intense short period of time in your life. >> that particular song, the title cut. yes. well, i had the idea for the song and it just, you know, hardest song to write is when you don't know what you want to say. but the first week of may 2010 was crazy, nashville had a

record flood, everybody lost something. we'd lost a lot of instruments. and then tuesday, musician friend of mine who had spent many a night on our couch, we buried him in anniston, alabama. and then thursday, my cousin adam spain was killed in afghanistan. and saturday the oldest of our five kids was married to the love of her life, jenny married josh in our side yard. and it was so beautiful. and jenny's mom, janice, we were all brushing our teeth together and families extended, vince turned around and looked at his first wife, second, we're celebrating. and he said, somehow this scenario never entered -- but it was just beautiful. it was beautiful. and i just -- i used the flood as the framework for the song.

>> this is your first album in a decade. >> a decade. >> you a little nervous this morning? >> i'm so filled with anticipation, i feel like i'm the cook that's been in the kitchen, i'm splattered with sauce and i need a hot shower and some deodorant. and i hope somebody's hungry. >> yeah, is anybody hungry, that's the question, right? >> well, i asked joe dumb questions like how hard is it to write a song? the only song i know from beginning to end is the "star-spangled banner" and "happy birthday." >> why are you asking a question? >> i have a question, because i'm fascinated by -- leave me alone. this goes back to "baby baby," i know her career. has your voice changed? >> he knows "baby baby." >> such a long career, you haven't been -- done an album in the studio. has your voice changed? >> well, i actually lost my voice last year and -- and i was

treated at the vanderbilt voice clinic for about six months. and so if it's changed, i think i just have more respect for an aging body. >> yeah. >> yeah. how horrifying was that? >> it was scary. yeah. body. >> how horrifying was that? >> it was scary. i thought well, i will learn something else. i will do something else. >> you dedicate this album to your mom. >> yes. >> that personal relationship, the intensity of that, how did that frame out the rest of the album beyond the first song to tell the narrative throughout for you in that relationship with your mom? >> it was really after the record was finished that i was thinking about my mom. she passed away two years ago and when i was about two months before she died, i went to see her one night. she had that crazy dementia that

one day she was herself and one day she thought she was pregnant. oh, my god, you are 79. i hope not. i had gone to visit her and on the way to the tour bus and i told her i have to go sing. she said oh, you sing? i went, i do. the first person i ever sing a song for. she said would you sing me a song. i have a lump in my throat and i sang part of an old song and we had a great conversation. her natural curiosity was still intact. when i was walking out she said will you do me a favor. she said when you walk out on stage, sing something that matters. you do not have to have all your faculties to be wise. when the album was finished, i

looked at the songs and sometimes you are keeping a promise and you don't know it. >> your mother is proud. >> the a.m. bum is how mercy looks from here. thank you very much. >> thank you. good luck. >> great story. >> i'm sure everybody will be hungry. >> ahead next hour, the host peter sagal. his nationwide trip to examine constitutional issues takes him everywhere from a medical marijuana shop to a shooting range. keep it here on "morning joe." io mission a for a final go. this is for real this time. step seven point two one two. verify and lock. command is locked. five seconds. three, two, one.

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>> up next, new revelations surrounding the justice's department subpoena of ap phone roeshds and what it means for the president's second term. >> also the host -- wait, wait, wait. we shall return. e wright brothee the first in flight. [ goodall ] i think the most amazing thing is how like us these chimpanzees are. [ laughing ] [ woman ] can you hear me? and you hear your voice? oh, it's exciting! [ man ] touchdown confirmed. we're safe on mars.

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>> good morning. it's 8:00 a.m. on the east coast and 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. >> get out of bed right now. >> and the counter point, stay in bed as long as you can. order breakfast in bed. a live look at new york city and it's cold out there. you wonder if spring sis ever going to get here. >> let's get to the top story. we will start there. the justice department is under fire today for using a secret subpoena to obtain two months of phone records from the associated press's reporters and

editors. the doj sees the records of more than 20 separate phone lines used by the company's employees including home phones and cell phones and the main number for the ap in the house of representatives, in all more than 100 journalists were subject to the investigation. a senior official said the subpoena was necessary to avoid a substantial threat to the sbr integrity about the leak of a cia operation that stopped a terror attack. as many as six ap reporter who is worked on the story were among those targeted by the government. the ap's president writes in part this. there can be no possible justification for such an overboard collection of the associated press and reporters. we regard this action bite department of justice as a

serious interference with the ap's constitutional rights to gather and report the news. the white house said it has no knowledge of the seizure. the obama administration has taken steps in recent years to investigate the disclosure of classified information. joining us here in new york we have the editor for the negotiated press kathleen carroll. thanks for being with us. a day after this story drops, who is your response to what the white house said about the seize sure if. >> we are dispressed that they felt the need to seize our records and not tell us about it. certainly distressed as the protest to the justice department that the scope of the inquiry is so huge. more than 100 work at the places whose phone numbers and records were seized by the justice

department. >> you say over 100 reporters's phone records were seized? >> 20 different phone lines that include main numbers. if you down the t if you count the journalists. >> they have done this and made mistakes and they did this and apologized for an indonesian office. this goes right to the core of the associated press's mission. why does the impact of having the phone records of 100 reporters at the associated press seized by the government. >> it's clearly distressing to think without our knowledge someone is looking at phone calls we make in the course of daily business.

not all of them would be involving the kind of story that mike mentioned. it would be calling police officers to see what's going on on a burning house it. would be calling hospitals and talking with government officials of every level, city, county, state, federal. in the normal course of business. >> it would also be talking to whistle blowers and members of the federal government and sources and saying things not only about the administration the administration wouldn't want, but other officials. do you find this to be a chilling, intimidating breech of the associated press's constitutional -- you are smiling. i see karl smiling here. if i'm a reporter and i found out i was chasing a story with sources that were scared to talk to me and the federal government

and justice department has their phone numbers inside their agencies, that's chilling not only to the associated press, but to your sources. >> obviously we find this very distressing and the ceo put it best in the strongly worded letter that he sent yesterday to eric holder, the attorney general. i have been in the business more than 30 years. our first amendment lawyers and lawyers inside the ap and our ceo is a well-known first amendment lawyer. >> these records reveal communications with confidential sources with all news-gathering activities taken during a two-month period with the news gathering operation disclosed information about the activities and operations. the government has no conceivable right to know. >> want to get to that in a

second. i want to know what you are thinking. >> it's outrageous and inexcusable. the object is to intimidate people who talk to reporters and this was an accident waiting to be a nuclear event and now it's happening. there is no excuse for it whatsoever. no reason for the investigation, especially on this scale. if there is a statutory authority for it? probably. is there justification in terms of recognizing what the right to a free press is and what a free press means in the country, this is intimidation and it's wrong. the president of the united states should have long ago put a stop to this in his presidency. >> the times reported today this administration has done this twice as often as all other previous administrations. >> the numerical thing doesn't matter.

this is a matter of policy that is known to the president of the united states that this is the policy to say there was no knowledge in quotes specifically about this in the white house is nonsense. this is a policy matter and goes to the president and the people around him and national security. >> you use the word intimidation. it's not just about intimidating reporters, but it's about intimidating sources. >> the jd to make an example of those people who talk to reporters especially on national security matters. that's always the false claim of trying to hide things people odd to know. kathleen carroll said the news organizations have become good with working with administrations in terms of real national security matters. this is inexcusable and intimidating. there is no reason that a presidency that is interested in

a truly free press and the functioning should permit this to happen. >> the executive editor for the associated press, thank you very much. >> we appreciate it. >> nbc news correspondent lisa meyers. we will move on to the irs scandal, but i would love for to you jump in and with your take on the story. >> i totally agree with what karl said. this is extraordinary. it's never good if you are an administration and your name appears twice in the same week. this is what happened with the obama administration. i think critics would say their prosecution of leaks is selective. they didn't have that much problem when detailed leaked about the raid on the compound of osama bin laden, but they pursued leaks in other cases. the chairman of the judiciary,

democrat patrick leahy questioned whether the administration really could have met the threshold required to obtain this kind of sweeping subpoena of information. he said he was trouble and he wants specifics from the government on what they had that merited such an overly broad action. >> from that we go to this story about the irs despite greg calls for don dem nation. he addressed the agency's with the word tea peard in the game and others. the president came out saying that kind of administration. >> if in fact irs press was

intentionally targeting conservative groups, and there is no place for them. they have to be held fully accountable. they have to see what the details and the facts are. i have no patience and i will not tolerate it and we will make sure we will find out exactly what happened on this. >> the agency said it was limited to low level workers at a cincinnati field office and the "washington post" reports at least two irs officials were also involved with the investigation. >> and really quickly a very important point, they are talking about a low level field office in cincinnati. i got this wrong and it's not like a -- it's not like the office. it's grand. no, they set this up as the

national center for this type of work. this is the national office. it's not a low level field office and that is the spin from the supporters of the president. a couple of guys have come in and they have the crazy idea. this was the national office for what they were doing. >> lisa meyers is shaking her head. what are you thinking? >> in a matter of four days, lots of what the irs told us turned out to be at best incomplete and untrue. you have the fact that it was not just a couple of rogue employees in cincinnati and the paper trail shows there were documents and letters that went out from washington with the documentation and asking for a list of donors for over $2,000.

we learned that the targeting was more extensive and earlier than they admitted and the previous and acting commission. they failed to correct the record with congress and continued to maintain a correspondence that there was no targeting. >> given the fact that the house ways and means committee said that on the probe as well is what the president said enough? >> no. there is a pressury secretary of the united states and the irs respects to part of the department of the treasury, look. is this being politicized in trying to pin things on the president and the events in some ways, yes. does that mean there is an excuse up to near the top and the top of the irs for what happened here? this is an organization that has

to happen. >> by the way -- >> no possible excuse. >> as you know, the top of the i irs. they report to jack lew. there is a reason harry truman put on his desk the buck stops here. i am not saying the president knew. we don't know that now because of their behavior in what happened after the attacks on ben goesy. there in lies the problem for this administration with benghazi. are voters going to go other than conservative voter who is always vote against the president anyway, are they going to know a thing about ben gaza he? no. they will say wait a second. they didn't tell us the truth. are they telling us the truth about the irs? this is going from mere incompetence to what is

beginning to look like a pattern. you have to blow that up fast. i don't know if they are aggressive enough to do that. it is your responsibility for what happened. if i'm the president of the united states, i'm telling eric, i would. we have been going into my office and have one question for him. >> you have to explain to me why i keep you on. you have to say eric, it's time to go. maybe the larger issue is what happens to immigration. what happens to gun control? what happens to every item that's on the agenda for president obama's second term. difficult enough already.

with this stuff, what do people say about this? they think it's totally out of control. >> they're seep to be out of control and the fact that this hit one after another after another is shocking. i want to end this segment with something that karl said that i always agree with. a brilliant insight that for me as i'm reading this story, i'm trying to put it together with everything that i have known and you have known and karl has known and they have grown up in and around this business in washington. isn't this what reporters have been doing since vietnam and what they are supposed to be doing? aren't they supposed to call to see if the government is lying to us and telling us the truth and if they are spring the war?

is it what the associated press has been subpoenaed for and attacked for? isn't that the most basic of reporters's responsibility when they wake up in the morning and pick up the phone and make calls? >> it is and the associated press in particular has been more aggressive in the last couple of years to do more investigative work and dig out more stories. this administration has a history of really coming down on people who talk to reporters in any capacity. if someone has the audacity to say something critical of obama care, they usually take it back fairly quick low or don't speak to reporters at all because there is such a focus on keeping the story line and the narrative the way the administration wants it. sometimes they can be excessive and it may be what we are seeing

from the justice department is really the embodiment of that mentality. >> his broadway debut, this actor is back on stage in the powerful play the big nine. his role on the hit show nurse jackie. chuck todd joins us with howard fineman. first, bill karens with a check on the forecast. >> colder in some intoes and hotter some other spots. the northeast is the area that is struggling with the cold temperatures, even at this hour, the sun has been up for about two hours. binghamton at 31 degrees. some of the early apple blossoms in michigan and upstate new york got damage. there could be another year with the apple crop that is hurting.

gorgeous weather from boston to d.c. i mentioned it was hot yesterday. 93 in fargo. 103 in phoenix. a lot of that air is moving across the country. notice that chicago, you are 16 degrees warmer than this time yesterday. you are one of the locations that will see the temperature soar. midwest is drawing in the hot. the northwest is where we will watch tomorrow. washington, d.c. after a chilly start, you will have a fantastic afternoon. enjoy. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. i am an american success story. i'm a teacher. i'm a firefighter. i'm a carpenter. i'm an accountant. a mechanical engineer. and i shop at walmart.

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when we talk about defending your country, the ideal of america, the constitutional idea. >> to keep our rights and liberties. >> a lot of people don't realize the bill of rights report to protect me from him or you or anybody else. they were to protect the individual citizen from the government. this is who we are. this right here. >> a coup of the constitution in your pocket you carry with you? >> yes. i believe in what it says and a lot of people said the constitution says this. >> i love how you get in barifies over constitutional arguments. >> 22 past the hour.

that was a scene from the new mini series constitution usa. joining us from chicago, the host of the show and host of wait, wait, don't tell me, peter sagal. >> if you had shown that to a lot of people, they had rolled their eyes. >> people tend to roll their eyes a lot anyway. >> the scene seems more poignant with breaking about the associated press. >> it's true. one of the issues watching the show waiting to join you and everything you have been talking about from olympia snow to the ap. the constitution under lies all of this. there is both free press and government control. did the government get subpoenas to get this information as required by the biffle rights?

it's all there. the constitution underlies everything. it's like the force. >> yeah. mike, the constitution and the guy that was speaking in the bar was right. >> that was kong, by the way. he is the founder of the arizona leather necks motorcycle club. all those guys are ex-marines. >> no such thing as an ex-marine. i quote kong. it's not to protect you from me, but us from the government. a lot of times people say they are nuty and this and that. when you have the, b abuses, ths what it's for. >> people are full of surprise and it's endly fascinating to see them representing the npr. >> with kong. >> we went riding together.

in the documentary i am taking the road trip on a harley davidson. we got to go riding with those guys. i never felt more gloriously npr. sandra day oh, conor has this in common. chris dodd, former senator carries a copy. you would be surprised. >> we are all kong. >> he's thrilled wherever he is, i'm sure. >> i'm fats nated by the concept of the constitution and how the bikers and the leather necks out here view it and how similar it is to what we hear arguments made by folks who are tea

partiers and part of the occupy. this document really has a fundamental to play and at times we look at and want to change it and refashion it as mike noted about the endless change we see with the american people. >> did you get a sense that people want to do that or take it as the bedrock it is. >> one of the things we found out is people believe in the constitution more than they know about it. as kong said in the clip, he is always bringing it out to say where does it say that. they believe the role in the constitution is to protect our rights. the freedom to walk around snaked in san francisco. the knowledge about how it created this democracy in which

we now lived, that's less common among the people. one of the things is how it works. this is not a historical thing and going across empty rooms and paintings of guys in funny white wigs. these are people living the constitution today whether they like it or not. >> give us a sense and i love the anecdote about why the bill of rights didn't make the main body of the constitution. that was a good moment. >> we were talking about richard beeman who knows all these guys by name. they said they were spending like four months in the hot, closed room because they didn't want any literal leaks. it was 1787 and at the end someone raised their hand and say shouldn't we have a bill of rights? everyone said no, we just want to go home.

they were smelly and tire and some of them missed their favorite slaves. they took off from philadelphia and it was later when they took off to the states to be ratified, they said we need a biffle rights. they promised to provide one and that's what happened. >> the mini series, constitution usa airs tonight. >> pressure to talk to you guys. funny to see you without being on a treadmill. >> the most of the series npr. hopefully you feel so stupid. >> looking at him makes me feel stupid. inadequate. >> we will talk to an emmy winner about his on broadway. ♪

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. the host of the daily run down here in new york and msnbc. a democratic representative from

minnesota. thank you, you guys. we have a lot to talk about. he brought up an interesting point about all of the benghazi and irs thing on friday and monday we have the ap. first of all you talked to -- >> as you know, i got an honorary degree from america's 68th best law school. >> number in our hearts. i didn't think that was quite enough to give me the umph. he was one of the most brilliant lawyers in d.c. harvard law school knows the differently justice's own rules intima intimately. he walked me through and said every possible thing that the doj could have done wrong and they did wrong in this case. in terms of the records they

got. no notice before or to long after the fact. no evidence that they exhausted other ways to find the information. one of the key things you have to do is look for other ways to get the information before you do this. they slapped it on quickly and the doj guidelines say the goal is to be as unintrusive and as protective of the press as we can be. they violated both the letter and the spirit of their guidelines. the question is why? >> the question is why and also how. you department talk about the timing. >> everything during the reelection cycle makes people crazy. >> the timing of the revelations and john karl's revelations on friday morning following up weekly standards a week earlier. friday afternoon of course you have the irs scandal and now

yesterday afternoon when i saw the ap report, i could not believe another -- and they made a terrible mistake and we don't know why. >> it's chilling and they oh, us an explanation. the brought scope of what they subpoenaed in going after phone records. they potentially tapped reporters's phone records from a bunch of news organizations in the broadway they went on and subpoenaed to capitol hill press room. any reporter from any news organization could have been using this. here they claim they were going after the associated press. >> can you talk about when you can the ap's phone in the capital? >> it's just that they went to the capital press room. there is shared communications there. the idea of going after people's

personal cell phones that by the way is where a majority of reporting is done when you do the telephone reporting these days. it seems over the top and you wonder, they better have a very good explanation of whatever fish they are trying to smoke out. let's realize they put it well a little while ago. this has been an attempt, a concerted effort to spook anybody that might leak, any money that might be a source or a whistle blower in government and sort of keep them from ever talking to the press. >> they talked about this and this is all about intimidation. >> this is intimidation and that's what it feels and looks like and unless they have a different explanation, there is no other conclusion to draw than a way to intimidate whistle

blowers. >> doesn't seem so whiney. >> we will talk to bob earlier this week. >> once again, bob wood ward ahead of the curve. we will see you in a few minutes and the show will be extraordinary. we will be watching. always extraordinary. >> 4 1/2 straight hours. >> i was going to say if you go in the house gallery, when you walk in, the first thing you see is the row of the ap. they are the people of men and women and the anchor of the place. if they were getting all the toll records of the ap's phone, you go into the press room now, the first thing you will think is not about the glory of the ap which is still the base for journalism.

you are going to think i wonder who at the doj is listening on that phone. >> unbelievable. what's congress's responsibilities? let's talk about the ap scandal and irs scandal. >> we have to do oversight. the answer has to be forth coming. it's outrageous. i don't want to jump to conclusions, but i remember a month ago when it wasal alleged that the white house was leaking stuff. they want to do it the wrong way and you have to stick close to the constitution and not allow yourself to be caught up in the moment of a national security thing and trying to prove all that kind of stuff. the campaign stuff, i am not going to jump to the conclusion and people can make that argument. we made more answers and i think there legitimate -- not

legitimate, but plausible reasons. other explanations. all wrong, but it had tow do with stopping leaks which we should be concerned about of course, but not an expense of the first amendment and the fre freedom of the press. >> what does the white house do? how does a president get out front without sounding depressing. especially the second term, an arrogance sets in around the president and the great challenges for the president to show himself from that arrogance inside the white house. >> what are i have seen is the administrations in their first term realizing the full powers of the government that they have. they can get tempted to try too hard shall we say to get reelected. what happens after the reelection, after it's taken out

of the com pain context, people say let's replay the tape on this. let's see what happens. that's how the irs story and the benghazi story has come back into the lime light and this is surfacing at the same time. the president needs to be the most important, most aggressive public advocate for looking at his own administration. that's a hard thing to do. that's what he has to do. >> i don't think it's quite enough. do you agree. what do you want the president to do today? >> he has to be the most vocal for transparency and accountability. he denounced the irs thing and they apologized as they should. >> you expect more out of that?

>> absolutely. if you apologize, that implies an investigation and a new policy going forward that will stop these things. request we also not rush past the implications of citizens united in the irs thing? these social welfare organizations under the 501 c 4 were doubling and tripling because citizens united opened the door for the organizations to be used to get unlimited. >> i agree with keith. >> really quickly, guys. the "new york times" agrees with keith as well. white house under fire. they say we said a year ago they should investigate the groups and the "new york times" said unfortunately it is their lead editorial and appeared the irs looked only at conservative groups applying for the skpemgz

inexcusable mistake given power over individuals. >> that's the arrogance. that's not a mistake. if that's accurate and exactly what happened, they are putting their thumbs on the scale for the election cycle purposely. >> the president said it was wrong and i was glad he did. you said that's not enough. >> it's going have a consequence that goes beyond. >> congressman keith ellison. his latest roll o brut way. keep it here on "morning joe."

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everyone. >> i'm not bargaining with you. >> you are not in a bargaining position. but it's true. i can't force to you sign this contract. >> that's exactly what you are trying to do. >> i have to take this a miss. i offer you my hand. >> i want to you let me go. we don't like each other. i will promise you anything to let me go. >> i need your physical presence. your body. not your good will. >> that was a scene from the new broadway play, the big knife and the play's costar bobby canivalle. it's intense. >> it's a wonderful play and written in 1948 by a play right

and waiting for lefty and golden boy. this is a later career play and done in 1948. hasn't been done in 65 years. >> there was a what i'm when hollywood actors were puppets. >> yeah, yeah. exactly. it's a good peek into that time. it has a lot to say and also about guy who is wear completed pants. >> i know. you look great in those. you want me to ask how it compares the mother to the hat? >> when what's it like? you have done and films. which do you like better? >> gosh, i guess i like going to work at the theater every day. i enjoy the feeling of acting in

front of an audience particularly here in new york. we have smart sophisticated audiences and there is an energy about it i enjoy. i love it. i love being home here in new york. >> a look at your costars. >> richard kind nominated for a tony for that role. he played this role 16 years ago and i told him we have to do this one day and you will win an award if you do. there he is. >> that's good. >> he's fantastic in it. a lot of people know richard about mad about you. spin city. he's it's a breakthrough role for him. it's fun to -- >> the frustration for the guy that you are playing, charlie wants to break out of this mold. why can't he? >> he compromised himself too much already.

he can't go back. i don't think it matters whether he's in hollywood or political life. once you start to compromise yourself, he can no longer do it. >> how big do they get the hooks? >> pretty tragic. >> like your live n terms of the choices you have to make and finding yourself up against that wall. >> me myself? i saw them play 16 years ago before my career had taken off and i did see it as a cautionary tale. i had not been to los angeles and i was 25 years old. living in l.a. and it was a bit of a -- >> did you look at -- where when did actionors start to take more control and make the deals with the devil? >> when did they stop?

i don't think they completely stopped. people do things that are questionable. it depends how much people are willing to sell. i of course haven't done that at all. >> no, of course not. that's why you were there yet again. you are such a great artist. you were perfect for the role. >> a limited engagement in new york city through june 2nd. you better logon quick to round about theater.org. >> thanks for being with us. always great to have you back. can't wait to see you. >> tomorrow, we will take to david axelrod and jimmy conors and dan brown. more "morning joe" up next. [ man ] on december 17, 1903,

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welcome back to "morning joe." come o baby. what did you learn? >> i said before benghazi was the center and now we have the rest of the staff with ap and the irs. >> the comedy versus the constitution. >> mike? >> i do not want to hear the phrase liberals bias apply to the media when it comes to the coverage of the obama administration over the past couple of days. >> mika? >> she wants to apologize to you. maybe the white house uses intimidation. >> now stop it. i didn't say that. >> you did. you said that and so much more. a lot of tough questions have to be asked.

i think they are going to. absolutely. i think the ap story depending on how far the irs story goes can consume the presidency depending on how far and how high the irs was. >> stranger danger. >> it's way too early this morning, but here is chuck. >> trifecta with accusations over ben gaza skpetghazi and th. the justice department secretly read phone records of their reporters. an unprecedented role. we will talk to one member of congress who represents the area and talk about whether class will do this. a deep dive into the upcoming